I feel this deeply, as a Deaf person in a world made by choice to be deeply inhospitable to me. There are islands of rightness and inclusions, but islands only. And honestly? I am an immigrant to these islands also. Thank you so so so much for this.
You are an immigrant as long as you ask yourself the question, but when you stop caring and drawing the line, the dichotomy gets dissolved. How many people are truly at home in their home countries / towns? Being at home or an immigrant is, from a point onwards, just a construct in our minds.
You're correct, Zoe, how we feel is just a construct in our minds, but what surprised me was how I was perceived by others. That wasn't something I could change. So even though I felt Norwegian, my friends introduced me as a foreigner. Now that I again live in the city I grew up in, people often introduce me as the guy who spent his whole life abroad...
That might just be the tiny sensationalist element that people use identifying or introducing you 😊 A Romanian football player was penalised for racism because some 2 yrs ago as he’d referred to one of the referees as the black guy. He, and 90% of Romanians, were shocked: well, but he was a black guy, what did I say wrong? That was how he’d told the one referree from the others: by his skin colour. What’s wrong with that? 😉 The same way, we, “immigrants” may always be identified as such, but hey, this means we always have our USP 😄
Nov 2, 2023·edited Nov 3, 2023Liked by Paul Moxness, M. E. Rothwell
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you:
It is the untransferability of our experiences that sets us apart. It is not just something in our mind. When I was finishing my point to Paul, I was thinking whether I should include this much more general point. I could talk hours about Jerusalem or hiking the Himalayas, but in the end, you still will not HAVE my experience. I can tell you about the music of my kite-line in the middle of the Winter on a frozen lake, you won't REALLY know what I am talking about.
The immigrant experience is just one example of the general idea
No apology necessary, Zork (may I call you Zork?).
I understand your point. We talk about it a lot in tourism and hospitality (which is my main career background). Experiences most definitely are untransferable. I think that's one of the reasons immigrants will always feel a degree of separation, even when they return to the places they emigrate from.
I see no disagreement here :) of course it’s a unique experience. My point was, at some point, one may stop looking to see that differentiating line and won’t bother to identify as an immigrant. Others may, yes, continue to refer to you as such, but you might have simply gone beyond that dichotomy. That doesn’t contradict what you’re saying, in fact, it reinforces it, because only an immigrant can go beyond, so there you are, the unique experience.
I have not read the book, but for me, for my wife and our many friends, immigrants like us, it is an often quoted truism, mostly in the context of a possible return to our roots.
In our case, coming from the former communist world, the original move had a certain finality to it.
Interesting that this is an often-quoted truism for you and it's understandable that your move had a feeling of finality to it. I became an immigrant through chance, choice, and fate. I had the chance to take a gap year in Europe, I chose to take the opportunity, and, as fate would have it, life happened and my gap year lasted four decades and a week....
Nov 2, 2023·edited Nov 2, 2023Liked by Paul Moxness, M. E. Rothwell
I have two years and two months on you. :) Closing doors behind oneself makes a big difference. My wife left Czechoslovakia with the understanding that she may never see her parents again. We are in Europe now visiting her 89 year old mother.
Three weeks ago we took a friend to the airport moving back to Czech Republic after 40-some years. Last week I met friends I have not seen in 42 years, all of them living with the fact that after decades abroad, they can never really be Hungarian again.
As you can see, the subject is very fresh in my mind
This was a different article from the one I assumed it would be, but it reinforced for me the truth that even if one is descended from recent immigrants, one is treated by some with a certain degree of suspicion and antagonism. This was a really great read, incisive, interesting and poignant
The phenomenon whereby if one is of a different religion than the official religion of the country you were born in and live in, or a different ethnic group, purely because your parents or their parents were immigrants, some people, especially in a time of crisis, will never see you as anything but an outsider
Funny how much this spoke to me considering I only moved seventy odd miles! It’s funny how different life is in a big city to a small village. I guess the smaller your world, the easier it is to impact it with an alteration. And no, I don’t go a day without someone either pointing out “you’re not from around here” or being introduced as “Donna, from Yorkshire”.
What an inspiring line, Paul! I think in the same way, whether you call yourself an immigrant or not. Our experiences make our journey unique, apart from the more immobile people. And that can never be changed, cancelled or removed from our DNA.
I'm just writing about a similar topic, about being asked 'where are you from', another way to signal (maybe unintentionally) an immigrant.
Go for it, Peter! I stayed in Norway for 20 years. Every place will have its good and less good sides, but there’s no better way to learn about life than by living in different cultures as I’m sure you know from your expat experience. And you could certainly do a lot worse than Norway if you choose to take the plunge there!
That's interesting, Marian. I wonder if you returned to Venezuela you might also feel some sense of "otherness". I sometimes feel like an immigrant although I now live in the country I emigrated from.
I feel this deeply, as a Deaf person in a world made by choice to be deeply inhospitable to me. There are islands of rightness and inclusions, but islands only. And honestly? I am an immigrant to these islands also. Thank you so so so much for this.
Love the description “islands of rightness and inclusion”.
You are an immigrant as long as you ask yourself the question, but when you stop caring and drawing the line, the dichotomy gets dissolved. How many people are truly at home in their home countries / towns? Being at home or an immigrant is, from a point onwards, just a construct in our minds.
You're correct, Zoe, how we feel is just a construct in our minds, but what surprised me was how I was perceived by others. That wasn't something I could change. So even though I felt Norwegian, my friends introduced me as a foreigner. Now that I again live in the city I grew up in, people often introduce me as the guy who spent his whole life abroad...
That might just be the tiny sensationalist element that people use identifying or introducing you 😊 A Romanian football player was penalised for racism because some 2 yrs ago as he’d referred to one of the referees as the black guy. He, and 90% of Romanians, were shocked: well, but he was a black guy, what did I say wrong? That was how he’d told the one referree from the others: by his skin colour. What’s wrong with that? 😉 The same way, we, “immigrants” may always be identified as such, but hey, this means we always have our USP 😄
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you:
It is the untransferability of our experiences that sets us apart. It is not just something in our mind. When I was finishing my point to Paul, I was thinking whether I should include this much more general point. I could talk hours about Jerusalem or hiking the Himalayas, but in the end, you still will not HAVE my experience. I can tell you about the music of my kite-line in the middle of the Winter on a frozen lake, you won't REALLY know what I am talking about.
The immigrant experience is just one example of the general idea
No apology necessary, Zork (may I call you Zork?).
I understand your point. We talk about it a lot in tourism and hospitality (which is my main career background). Experiences most definitely are untransferable. I think that's one of the reasons immigrants will always feel a degree of separation, even when they return to the places they emigrate from.
I see no disagreement here :) of course it’s a unique experience. My point was, at some point, one may stop looking to see that differentiating line and won’t bother to identify as an immigrant. Others may, yes, continue to refer to you as such, but you might have simply gone beyond that dichotomy. That doesn’t contradict what you’re saying, in fact, it reinforces it, because only an immigrant can go beyond, so there you are, the unique experience.
Funny that...
I have not read the book, but for me, for my wife and our many friends, immigrants like us, it is an often quoted truism, mostly in the context of a possible return to our roots.
In our case, coming from the former communist world, the original move had a certain finality to it.
Interesting that this is an often-quoted truism for you and it's understandable that your move had a feeling of finality to it. I became an immigrant through chance, choice, and fate. I had the chance to take a gap year in Europe, I chose to take the opportunity, and, as fate would have it, life happened and my gap year lasted four decades and a week....
I have two years and two months on you. :) Closing doors behind oneself makes a big difference. My wife left Czechoslovakia with the understanding that she may never see her parents again. We are in Europe now visiting her 89 year old mother.
Three weeks ago we took a friend to the airport moving back to Czech Republic after 40-some years. Last week I met friends I have not seen in 42 years, all of them living with the fact that after decades abroad, they can never really be Hungarian again.
As you can see, the subject is very fresh in my mind
This was a different article from the one I assumed it would be, but it reinforced for me the truth that even if one is descended from recent immigrants, one is treated by some with a certain degree of suspicion and antagonism. This was a really great read, incisive, interesting and poignant
Thanks for your kind comment, Terry. I'm curious to know what you assumed the article would be about.
The phenomenon whereby if one is of a different religion than the official religion of the country you were born in and live in, or a different ethnic group, purely because your parents or their parents were immigrants, some people, especially in a time of crisis, will never see you as anything but an outsider
Funny how much this spoke to me considering I only moved seventy odd miles! It’s funny how different life is in a big city to a small village. I guess the smaller your world, the easier it is to impact it with an alteration. And no, I don’t go a day without someone either pointing out “you’re not from around here” or being introduced as “Donna, from Yorkshire”.
That's interesting, Donna. I'll admit, I didn't pick up on your Yorkshire accent when reading your post!
By eck! I dowt know how tha missed it. 🤣
What an inspiring line, Paul! I think in the same way, whether you call yourself an immigrant or not. Our experiences make our journey unique, apart from the more immobile people. And that can never be changed, cancelled or removed from our DNA.
I'm just writing about a similar topic, about being asked 'where are you from', another way to signal (maybe unintentionally) an immigrant.
Thank you, Monica. I look forward to reading your post!
Here it goes! https://monicanastase.substack.com/p/where-are-you-from-question
I am curious to hear your take on this topic.
Thanks for sharing the article, Monica. It was brilliant!
I hope my current sinusitis doesn't delay me much longer in finishing it. 🤞🏼😊
Oof, this hits home as I’ve been an expat for some time and my partner and I are thinking about moving to Norway at some point
Go for it, Peter! I stayed in Norway for 20 years. Every place will have its good and less good sides, but there’s no better way to learn about life than by living in different cultures as I’m sure you know from your expat experience. And you could certainly do a lot worse than Norway if you choose to take the plunge there!
That's interesting, Marian. I wonder if you returned to Venezuela you might also feel some sense of "otherness". I sometimes feel like an immigrant although I now live in the country I emigrated from.
I hear you, Marian. I believe there are many people who live abroad from where they were born and raised and who understand and share your feelings